Idiotic Ways People Defend The False Doctrine of Hell
79I was just reading about a discussion someone was having with a christian concerning god's unfair practice of sending people to hell when they never heard the gospel. To make it short, this person's answer was "those who haven't heard the gospel automatically go to heaven". One must hear the word of God to reject it and only those who reject it can go to hell. UUUUuuuummmm, . . . . OK? So who's the bastard that told those poor Africans about christ, making them eligible for hell?!!
For those who haven't read my other posts, I am very clear that there is one way to salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ. I believe in the ultimate salvation of all mankind and am certain that the scriptures provide a wealth of support for this. I believe that all go through God's judgments, either in this physical life or they will be judged in the LOF Great White Throne Judgment. I believe judgment is for all non believers, non repentant evil doers and especially, those who teach false doctine. The very worst doctrine being that God has created a "physical" chamber of fire to torture physical bodies of sinners for all eternity. But how do ministers of deception get their monster of a god off of the hook for such evil?
Well, first they invent a doctrine called "free will". This way, god has nohing to do with people going to hell. Then they make evil invent itself through some ficticious story about some perfect angel named Lucifer turning evil. So, Lucifer somehow invents his own power to deceive the masses of humanity and god couldn't stop this. My favorite part of this story is how christians think that heaven is some location in space and when Lucifer was thrown out, the implication is that gravity pulled him to the Earth where he now lives. But what is Satan's motivation for doing the things against God?
Which brings me to another defense of the stupid hell doctrine:
Why do peope go there? Satan did it!! Why? Because he doesn't want to go to hell alone. Poor Satan's gonna be lonely, so he's recruiting company to share in the painful burning. Some "religulous" christians think that Satan will sit on the throne of hell and pleasure himself by torturing everybody for eternity. So, in other words, Satan is being rewarded for all of his sins. I don't deny that Satan is rewarded, but his reward is right now. as he dines on the carnal flesh of humans. But christians want to put his reward in human terms. Because what does it mean for Satan to dine on the dust of the Earth (us)? What is his satisfaction? We obviously don't know because we don't think as Satan thinks. But what is clear, is that Christians fail to realize that most sinning is to serve our carnal and fleshly desires right now. Not at a later time, such as when Satan is burning in hell, he'll have all of those people to play parchessy with. I have a suggestion though. How about we believe the scriptures that assert that God created Satan for a purpose?
The worst defense of hell though, is when christians say that christ died on the cross to save people from hell. Well, I guess it didn't work because these ministers think that most of humanity is still going there. But these people insist that Jesus would never have succomed to all of that torture and humiliation if he was not saving people from some torturous, eternal demise. I guess it never occured to these nitwits that we live in flawed bodies, experience ever increasing pain from birth, have constant stress to contend with, and when it's all over, we die like an animal. You. . . . . .you think that perhaps. . . . .this is what we're saved from? I mean, without Christ dying on the cross, we'd have to experience all of this for nothing. Worms would cover our eternal bed. We would never exist again. I had a coworker for some years who parroted the same nonsense about christ saving people from hell. This lady had a kidney transplant and several other health problems. Maybe her hope should be that she will be saved from such a warped body.
Anyhow, there are some real inventive ways that people defend the hell doctrine. I've heard that hell is justice for living in sin. Yeah, like we were given fair warning. Come on!! The only way such a warning would be sufficient is if every time we sin, we are shown a vision of our bodies screaming while burning in real fire (oh my god, why don't I die!!! you would be screaming). For good measure, we would have to also experience hot coals burning our ass every time we have naughty thoughts. That's the only way we could be fairly warned about such a horrific after life. And it still wouldn't be justified because how can someone experience an eternity of burning for sins in the short period of one's life? It would be bad enough to watch TBN for eternity without the fire. . . . . .on second thought, I'd take the fire rather than the TBN.
There are several bible verses that are used to defend this unholy doctrine of devils, but not one of them pans out. The scriptures for universal salvation are laced thoughout the bible. But this hub was to make a mockery out of those who defend this sick doctrine. Well, there is no defense. Every attempt christians make to defend this doctrine furthur shows their ignorance and vanity. Most people look on the events of the holocaust with anger. But hell mongering christians will have you believe that the jews who died in those camps had just experienced the beginning of an eternity with far worse torture.
In closing, people are going to believe whatever they are led to believe (including myself). But when defending your beliefs, make sure you have explored all of the possible ways that people will make swiss cheese out of them. I guarantee that orthodox churchianity has so many swiss cheese doctrines that it is a miracle that so few stand against them. But that hell doctrine is just plain sick. . . . .and really stupid.
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Hades is the same as Sheol of the OT. In the OT Sheol is translated hell 31 times and grave 31 times. Under who's authority was a word for unseen translated grave 31 times and hell 31 times? In Genesis God tells Cain that He heard Abel cry out from the dead. The scriptures assert that there is no thought in death. It's symbolic. You don't get the parable. I will post a summary to it soon. If you mention that parable in any of the rest of your responses today, I will be forced to do this immediately.
Hell yes! I love it..and have always had a relationship with a living, loving god, that so many people misunderstand because of all of the false doctrine about judgment and hell. He loves us, all of us, and he is not mad at anyone. He abolished death and the grave, on the cross. Hell is simply seperation from God. I love this "unread" verse in the ever so popular "For God so loved the world..." it goes on to say..."For I came not to judge the world...but so the WHOLE WORLD might have life." The gates of Hell shall not prevail! The gospel of christ means "good news"..so if it is not good news, it is not the gospel.
Thanks for the comment shannon. I'm not sure why you say hell is separation from God though. Hell is a false translation and a false doctrine. And the separation from god thing is used by countless christians to simply remove the fire from hell. They need not bother because hell is unscriptural to begin withh. I think I know what you're saying though. You're speaking of one not knowing God being in a state of torment. God be with you.
Shannon...you just added to scripture when you inserted the word "WHOLE" before the word "world" when referring to John 12:47.
Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
In any regard, you assume that Christ means the "whole world" when in fact, He means his elect. His Salvation is sufficient for all, but efficient for some.
Only those that the Father draws shall be saved.
No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44)
Your last scripture is abolutelly correct Jim. We cannot choose Christ on our own. But the world is never used in reference to Christ's elect. It's generally a rather unflatering term used to describe the general world order, especially the false churches flooding the land. Shannon adding the word whole does not change the meaning of world. The world is whole without that addition. But it is the hellers responsibility to discredit the scriptures that speak of the world being saved in the end. They can do no such thing.
The more I hear fellow Christians defend the TRADITIONAL VIEW of "Places of Punishment" the more convinced I am that they are completely indoctrinated on the issue. When I say "Places of Punishment" I'm referring to Things talked about in The Bible. These include Outer Darkness, Eternal Fire, Lake of Fire, Hades, Hell, Weeping and gnashing of teeth, ETC. These are all written about as "REALMS OF PUNISHMENT". We can gleam from the Scriptures that there will be suffering and torment there, but thats where it stops. Our MINDS are what create all the dark terror filled images that are associated with the text. The text itself just tells of torment. Here is where TRADITION, Human thinking and Doctrine come into play: It adds in these elements... ITS FOREVER, There is NO GRACE, There is no easing, It is Utter Seperation from God,There is No Chance. No Hope, The Torments are the worst kind and they are unrelenting. These elements completely frame how it is that most CHRISTIANS see God, Christ, The Bible, Life, The World and People. It gives a dark meaning to all these things. Believing in the Authority, Justice and Grace of CHRIST changes THE FRAME of all these things. It gives them all a meaning of LIGHT....Believe in PUNISHMENT not ETERNAL DAMNATION and come into The Light
Here is more on what adding the elements mentioned in the previous post do to people. IT POLARIZES THE MIND. A magnet is a good example of how POLARITY works. The north pole of a magnet will repel away from the south pole of a magnet because they are in magnetic opposition to each other. By adding the elements of FOREVER, No Grace, No easing, utter seperation from God, No chance, No hope and unrelenting Torments of the worst type, to God ordained Punishment you have given your mind a picture of a Polar God, Polar Christ, Polarized Scriptures, and a Polar meaning to Creation. The results or fruits that this worldview produces are these: Conflict, Hate, Anger, Resentment, Sectarianism, Denominationalism, Division, Anxiety, Fear. It produces these things on a worldwide scale. An individual Christian will say "NO it gives me peace because I know I'm going to Heaven". But the price that person pays for that peace is a Polar view of Existence and all the attitudes, prejudices and beliefs that go along with it. The alternative and much more Christ-like view of God, Christ, The Bible, Eternity, people and The World would be from a point of UNIVERSALISM. More on that in my next post. I dont want to say too much in one sitting.
Here is what it means to view creation from a point of UNIVERSALISM. I am proposing that all of creation, everything that exists in time and eternity MUST contain 3 elements. These 3 elements are Gods Authority, Gods Justice, and Gods Grace. Gods Authority means His Laws(Physical Laws, Spiritual Laws) His Laws are what brings things into being and what holds them together. They are what CREATE. His Justice is the system of CAUSE and EFFECT (If this happens, then that will happen) and His GRACE is what SUSTAINS everything. Nothing can exist solely on its own. Everything relies on infinitely more things other than itself in order to be sustained. Those sustaining factors are all GRACES. This reliance on Grace that everything has means that creation exists under a ONENESS or UNIVERSALISM. That means that though there are infinite parts, they all rely on everything else to sustain its existence. It is a system of UNIVERSAL GRACE. All of creation is held together by GODS UNIVERSAL AUTHORITY, UNIVERSAL JUSTICE AND UNIVERSAL GRACE. That would include all places of Punishment. That includes Lake of Fire, Hell and everything else. This is a vastly different way of thinking than THE POLAR way of thinking mentioned in the previous post. TO see God, Christ, Scriptures and eternity in the FRAME of UNIVERSALISM removes all the terror, fear, conflict, sectarianism, denominationalism, hate and anger that the POLAR view produces. I'd like to hear some feedback on this!
Bill, I'm all for phylosophy. But I try to back up what I say with scriptures. Sure, my world view plays a huge roll even where scripture doesn't mention something. Furthur, my understanding of science plays a roll in how I interpret scripture. Nothing wrong with that if scripture doesn't go against my world view. All that I can be is wrong. But stating your belief on something is one thing. If it's not backed up by either science nor scripture, then what is it worth to the world? Your three elements in all of creation seem to be in an attempt to back up the notion that god is a trinity. Again, not backed up by scripture. You have every right to believe in the three elements of everything philosophy and I won't critisize it. But as far as I know, God's word never taught that. Nor does science. You say justice is the system of cause and effect. I don't get it. Are you saying that if a taxi cap jumps a curve and runs me over on the sidewalk, this is justice because I happened to be there? There's cause and effect. The cause is a taxi cap jumping a curb. The effect is I get smooshed. Perhaps there's justice for the driver for being a slow witted unconsionable jerk. I won't ellaborate furthur on that. To me, justice is what sets things right. At least God's justice will. The universalism that I teach involves all of humanity and requires justice and ultimately, grace. I don't know what God has in store for all of the electrons and protons that were created after the "Big Bang" event. And the animals and trees and bugs? Don't know. The scriptures don't mention them so I won't speculate.
Be mindful that it is a common practice of our worldly churches to come up with personal phylosophies that have no scriptural bases.
I appreciate your comments on my posts. I used the word JUSTICE as an indication that I believe in Punishment. Many people misunderstand UNIVERSALISM as a belief that "ALL PEOPLE GO TO HEAVEN" which I Dont believe, but I do believe that all conscious souls must have GRACE and HOPE to even exist. In that sense all people are saved. I think the 2 state eternity of Heaven and Hell that tradition teaches is extremely juvenille and of an immature mind. In the Macro sense this may be true, but in the micro sense there are probably many many realms within these 2 larger stales. This would require thinking like GALILEO did in the middle ages when he proposed the insane idea at the time that the earth revolved around the sun and not vice versa. At the time, the CHURCH had a 2 state view of the UNIVERSE. Theres EArth here, and Heaven in the sky. It turned out that the UNIVERSE is infinitely more vast than that ignorant view at the time. The way Christians view the next life is identical to how they viewed the universe in the middle ages. They needed a major enlightenment then, and they need a major enlightenment now...If they have the courage to consider and believe, without worrying about thinking outside their souls safety zone. It would actually require faith. I'll look for more of your posts, and comment when appropriate. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!
Bill,first off,I do believe in all being saved. Heaven is not a place at all and hell is a mistranslation in every instance. I believe the scriptures. It is not intellect that gives people understanding of scripture but a gift from God. By the way, you don't need to search for my articles. If you click on my title, you can see every article I have written.
Carrie Bradshaw Level 2 Commenter 3 years ago
Well, first of all, let's look at Jesus being put to a torturous death on the cross. For Satan, that was NOT the end of Jesus Christ! Satan tried to tempt Jesus to cast himself off a cliff right after Jesus was baptized by John during his 40 days and nights of being tempted of the devil. Jesus was obedient, even unto death (Phil 2:8) or else Jesus would have been guilty of sin (going against God's will).
And finally, let's look at what the scriptures say about heaven and hell in this passage: Luke 16:23-31
"And in Hades he (a rich man) lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame. But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things (as a rich man), and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that noen may cross over from there to us. And he said, 'Then I beg you, Father, that you send him to my father's house--for I have five brothers--that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' But he said, 'No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead."
I think this states very CLEARLY that even using the word Hades (hell, the grave), there is a place of torment and a place of comfort that are divided in the spiritual realm and there will be no second chance. If people don't HEAR now, it will indeed be the last chance.